Jon Ronson: ‘Elon Musk epitomises despicability’

It doesn’t take lengthy into our dialog earlier than Jon Ronson and I are discussing whether or not Donald Trump is a psychopath. The writer and journalist is the precise man to ask, in any case, given his 2011 bestseller The Psychopath Take a look at was a world sensation that continues to be a ubiquitous presence on bookshelves to this present day. “My reply to this,” says Ronson, chatting over Zoom from his residence in upstate New York, “is whenever you take a look at Trump, what’s happening below the floor? Are there quite a lot of feelings? Quite a lot of wounds that received’t heal? If that’s the case, he’s most likely a narcissist. If what’s happening below the floor is nothing, then that form of makes him a psychopath. The outward manifestation of psychopathy and narcissism is kind of comparable nevertheless it appears like there’s a volcano of feelings happening beneath Trump’s floor.”

For the e book, Ronson – who’s additionally written about cancel tradition in So You’ve Been Publicly Shamed, and terrorists and racists in Them: Adventures with Extremists – immersed himself on this planet of psychopathy. He visited probably the most harmful items of Broadmoor Hospital to interview sufferers, and located himself within the gauche Florida mansion of a as soon as distinguished CEO, as he explored the concept of how the cutthroat company world rewarded psychopathic behaviours, akin to mendacity and deceit, lack of empathy, lack of regret or guilt, egocentricity and a grandiose sense of self-worth.

Ronson’s 2011 research went on “a journey by way of the insanity trade”, utilizing psychologist Robert D Hare’s well-known guidelines to establish psychopaths. Now, it’s a topic he’s returning to once more for a UK-wide tour, as he asks “Do psychopaths rule the world?” whereas reopening the case “with unique anecdotes and contemporary reflections, taking you on an exhilarating exploration of insanity and the elusive psychopathic thoughts”.

So, 13 years on from publication, what’s the enduring fascination for him? “It’s simply so attention-grabbing,” he says, in his distinct, softly spoken voice, with these trademark spherical spectacles assembly my gaze. “For example, this concept that of all of the psychological issues, the one which we’ve determined to advertise as a society is the very worst one. In case you have been going to decide on a psychological dysfunction to make society go round, to make the world flip, you wouldn’t wish to select psychopathy however but we reward psychopathic traits. That’s fascinating.”

Ronson can even be exploring the massive spike in self-diagnosis in psychological well being. “It was once that we’d diagnose one another with issues as a means of stigmatising that individual, however that feels prefer it’s actually modified,” he says. “There’s an enormous quantity of self-diagnoses happening, of issues like trauma, ADHD and autism, which I wish to discuss. When is {that a} good factor? When is {that a} unhealthy factor? When does an growth of psychological well being diagnoses profit society? And when does it trigger issues? Which I discover attention-grabbing as a result of I don’t have a robust ideological place on this. Typically it’s a extremely good factor, generally it’s unhealthy.”

One of many different large adjustments to have taken place, culturally and societally, for the reason that publication of Ronson’s authentic e book, is the insatiable urge for food for true crime tales that has taken maintain. Is there a hazard this sort of material can feed into the extra disagreeable finish of this? “I’m simply so conscious of that stuff that I’m not anxious,” he says. “I really feel very assured that I get it tonally proper. However I agree with you. A few of these true crime podcasts are simply so gleeful. They love all of the blood and the gore. This [psychopath tour] isn’t like that in any respect.”

Nevertheless, it does make Ronson pause for a second to replicate on his personal contributions to this. He appears a bit uneasy occupied with his 2019 podcast sequence, The Final Days of August, which coated the suicide of the grownup trade employee August Ames. “In some ways, it was a critique of true crime podcasting,” he says. “However, you already know, possibly that slid a bit too near consolation for my moral likings. August solely died a few months earlier than I began making that present and there I used to be poking round in folks’s lives so quickly after she died. So though that present was actually cautious to not fall into these true crime podcasting traps, it’s nonetheless doable to do it.”

Ronson can draw a connecting line between our grisly obsession with true crime, and beginner sleuths, with the way in which folks function on-line. “It’s form of like Twitter, in that we’re taking fragments of bits of details about anyone after which drawing a complete narrative about that individual,” he says. “Which may be very fallacious. It’s a really unhealthy factor to do.” Is there a direct correlation between the way in which folks behave on social media and in actual life, does Ronson really feel? “I wouldn’t say social media promotes an absence of empathy nevertheless it actually promotes a extremely selective empathy,” he says. “And likewise, issues like pathological mendacity. I believe that’s one other huge change to society. Simply consider the tens of millions of public figures now who’re accused of transgressions they usually’re simply unapologetic. Elements of psychopathic behaviour have gotten increasingly more acceptable in our society, not simply amongst our leaders, however among the many normal public too.”

With folks leaving Twitter/X in droves and with much less of a centralised platform to collect on, Ronson is starting to really feel like a few of social media’s clout and affect could also be on the downturn. “I believe it’s dropping energy in quite a lot of methods,” he says. “I imply, X is only a mess. In case you click on the ‘for you’ tab as a substitute of the ‘following’ tab, it’s simply snuff movies. Movies of white folks beating up Black folks, and the caption is, ‘He f***ed round and discovered.’ Dying movies. Movies of individuals getting hit and killed by automobiles. I imply, Jesus Christ. That’s X now. I by no means thought I’d say this, due to all the nice that Twitter used to do, however I’ll really be relieved if X collapses at this level.”

Twitter/X has turn into, for Ronson, a spot with no redeeming options left. “These constructive issues don’t actually appear to occur anymore,” he says. “It’s simply movies of individuals being maimed or killed, and lies. The one constructive factor that’s come from it’s that it’s defanged the worst facet of left-wing publishing, the place you may need a essential character determine with lots of of hundreds of followers who can instigate a pile-on. That doesn’t actually exist anymore as a result of everyone’s fled. These folks have moved to [invite-only X alternative] Bluesky and that doesn’t have the ability. However what’s taken its place is that this gross right-wing public shaming. All of the years they have been happening about how horrible cancel tradition is and the minute that they had the ability, they did the identical.”

He compares the exodus to a scene that his buddy, the documentary filmmaker Adam Curtis, predicted. “At first of Twitter, Adam stated to me that it’s going to create an web that’s going to be like a John Carpenter film,” he says. “All of those warrior gangs yelling at one another after which, similar to in these John Carpenter films, most individuals are going to wish to go away to the secure suburbs the place individuals are good to one another. He stated that to me in about 2009 and it kind of feels that that’s the place we at the moment are.”

Whereas I’ll have been anticipating a considerably diplomatic response from such a seasoned journalist as Ronson, after I ask him his views on the person behind Twitter/X, he merely can not conceal his disdain for Elon Musk. “He simply epitomises despicability,” he says. “Simply the opposite day, he’s standing subsequent to Trump and he says if Kamala wins the following election this would be the final election and that he’s genuinely anxious there’ll by no means be one other one. I’m similar to, f*** off with that scaremongering bulls***.” And don’t get him began on one other space of Musk’s cultural influence. “Have you ever seen these cyber vans?!” he exclaims, animated and indignant. “Have you ever seen what they appear to be within the flesh? God, it’s like a civil warfare. It’s all completely signalling like a kind of f***-you swagger.”

So, Musk will not be somebody Ronson could be thinking about as a topic to take a seat down with? “I’m going to make a 3rd season of Issues Fell Aside,” he says of his culture-wars podcast. “And I’ve been occupied with Elon Musk as anyone who I may probe for that. However I’m not solely positive. Possibly everyone knows what we take into consideration him and that’s sufficient. I listened to a few biographies on him and I wish to attempt to shock folks however I didn’t discover something about Musk that we don’t already know.”

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As somebody who has spent a protracted time frame submerged neck-deep in a world of conspiracy theories, tradition wars, and usually a few of the extra perturbing, nefarious and baffling features of the fashionable world that we occupy, fairly than feeling burned out or despondent, Ronson seems to be clinging onto hope. “By way of America, I really feel, in the long term, a bit extra optimistic,” he says. He thinks the provocative right-wing mega troll varieties, who over time have emerged and run rampant from the darkest depths of the web, could also be waning. “I’m unsure how sustainable it’s, truthfully,” he says. “I wouldn’t be shocked if it goes out of vogue as a result of I believe individuals are getting sick of division wherever it’s emanating from.”

He additionally feels we could also be about to see a generational attitudinal shift come into play. As somebody who has witnessed his son’s formative teenage years on the identical time he’s documented the tradition wars, Ronson has seen this up shut. “Youthful youngsters are developing now and I don’t assume they’re as concerned in this stuff as their older siblings,” he says. “I keep in mind considering when So You’ve Been Publicly Shamed (2015) got here out that the younger have been making a algorithm for themselves that have been so stringent and draconian that they wouldn’t be capable of abide by them themselves. I believe youthful youngsters are coming alongside and seeing these guidelines that their older siblings created, they usually’re like, f*** that, I’m not spending my life tiptoeing round a minefield.”

He’s even veering in the direction of a constructive final result for the upcoming election. “If I needed to put cash on it, I’d say that Kamala might be going to win,” he says. “I may completely be fallacious about that, however I simply can’t bear the considered one other 4 years of Trump.”

Jon Ronson’s Psychopath Evening is touring throughout the UK from 12 October. Tickets right here.