Andrei Kurkov (b. 1961) is one in all Ukraine’s most prolific and eclectic writers. He has lined a number of themes linked to Ukraine’s current historical past – particularly after the 2004 Orange revolution, in addition to a number of thriller tales, some virtually surrealistic, set within the years following the collapse of the Soviet Union.His most well-known novel is Loss of life and the Penguin (Classic Publishing, 2002) . He wrote the essays Ukraine Diaries (Classic Publishing, 2014) Diary of an Invasion (Deep Vellum, 2023) and Our each day conflict (Open Border Press, 2024). This interview is an edited transcript of the dialog he had with Italian journalist Andrea Pipino on the 2024 Internazionale a Ferrara pageant.
Andrea Pipino: For the reason that starting of the century, you’ve steadily been performing as an envoy of Ukrainian literature overseas. What makes it so particular? Why in your opinion has this occurred, particularly contemplating what has occurred to Ukraine after the Russian invasion of 2014
Andrei Kurkov: I truly began in 1999. At the moment there was no information of Ukraine. Individuals solely knew about Chernobyl and the native mafia. So I believe I did lots of and lots of of various guide displays and discussions. Since then I’ve acquired used to speaking extra about Ukraine than about my books. As a result of in case you do not perceive Ukraine, you in all probability will not perceive my books. Despite the fact that I am making an attempt to jot down common tales that may be understood by any reader.
The issue with modern Ukrainian literature is that it’s introverted. It’s geared toward individuals who already know so much about Ukraine. On the similar time, Ukrainians have at all times been indignant that the world does not find out about them, does not perceive the distinction between Russians and Ukrainians.
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In Western Europe, we regularly are inclined to suppose that the a part of the continent that was once a part of the Soviet Union is just about “Russia”, however it’s positively not: Ukraine, the Baltic international locations and even the Caucasian republics akin to Georgia have a really robust nationwide id. Has the scenario lately – particularly because the full-scale invasion of Ukraine – modified this view?
Sadly, we would have liked a conflict in Ukraine to point out that Ukraine is totally different from Russia, to the purpose that Russia is making an attempt to destroy it due to that very distinction. Curiously, the Russian aggression in Georgia has not created any cultural curiosity in Georgia. It hasn’t affected the interpretation of Georgian literature or the recognition of Georgian movies.
I wish to point out a rustic from the previous Soviet Union, which is likely one of the most fascinating international locations, and thank God there was no conflict there, however the result’s that no one is aware of about it: Lithuania. If you wish to discover a magic kingdom, a tiny magic kingdom with the identical inhabitants as we have now in Kyiv, with 4 totally different areas, with an unbelievable historical past – the Lithuanian kingdom was the largest European state within the 14th century. In the present day it’s nonetheless an unbelievable nation, but it surely stays largely unknown, as does Lithuanian literature and tradition.
Nearly all of Russians, together with the elite, have lengthy been unwilling or unable to simply accept that the previous Soviet republics are international locations with their very own historical past, language and id. Is that this nonetheless the case?
Vladimir Putin, as he has repeated many occasions, believed that his biggest private drama was the collapse of the Soviet Union, which signifies that his dream was the resurrection of the Soviet Union or the post-Soviet Russian Empire. I’d not be so optimistic as to say that Putin isn’t planning to assault the Baltic states.
Russian imperial ambitions for Ukraine date again to the early 18th century. In 1709 there was the well-known Battle of Poltava in Ukraine, which pitted Peter the Nice and his military towards the Ukrainian military of Hetman Mazeppa and the Swedish military of Charles XII. Peter the Nice defeated the Ukrainian military and the Ukrainian Cossacks, and Hetman Mazeppa fled to Bessarabia, in present-day Moldova and Romania. This was in all probability the primary main battle by which Russia seized just about all of Ukraine. Eleven years later, Peter the Nice signed the primary decree towards Ukrainian id. It was a decree banning the publication of non secular texts in Ukrainian. This decree additionally included a clause to take away all spiritual books written in Ukrainian from the church buildings.
Between 1720 and 1917 there have been greater than 40 decrees signed by totally different Russian tsars to destroy the Ukrainian language, tradition and id. So right now’s conflict is nothing new. The identical factor occurred in Lithuania: Lithuanians weren’t forbidden to make use of their language, however they have been forbidden to make use of the Latin alphabet. So the Lithuanian language needed to be written and printed in Cyrillic, by determination of Tsar Alexander II.
Have you ever at all times been conscious of the distinctiveness of Ukrainian tradition? You have been born in what was then known as Leningrad – now it is St Petersburg – and you then moved to Kiev.
I used to be born in Russia – the Soviet Union, truly – however I can not be certain if I am Russian or Ukrainian. I can not be 100% certain as a result of my father and grandfather have been Don Cossacks. Many Don Cossacks are literally of Ukrainian origin, as a result of Empress Catherine the Nice banned the Ukrainian Cossack hetmanate and instructed the Cossacks that in the event that they needed to maintain their weapons, their weapons, they needed to settle close to the Caucasus and defend that border for the Russian Empire.
When the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, I used to be very blissful. In fact, I used to be shocked by these occasions, however I used to be much less shocked than my mother and father, who could not think about life outdoors the Soviet Union or with out it. I used to be very blissful as a result of I believed that now that Ukraine had develop into impartial, it could be a lot simpler to construct an impartial European state. That 12 months I turned politically Ukrainian, which at the moment meant belonging to the extra energetic a part of society, the place the ethnic Ukrainian group was dominant.
‘When the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, I used to be very blissful as a result of I believed that now that Ukraine had develop into impartial, it could be a lot simpler to construct an impartial European state’
Since 1991, each citizen of Ukraine is Ukrainian, and it does not matter if she or he is of Crimean Tatar, Hungarian, Russian or Moldovan origin. We’re Ukrainian residents and that’s my id. My mom tongue is Russian. I learnt Ukrainian once I was 14, in a Soviet college. As a result of I used to be curious, I could not perceive why the republic was known as Ukraine and no one spoke Ukrainian in Kiyv. At college I had just one buddy from a Ukrainian-speaking household.
After college I labored as an editor, enhancing novels translated from overseas languages into Ukrainian. I personally write fiction in Russian, non-fiction in Russian, Ukrainian and English, and youngsters’s books, now principally in Ukrainian.
Language has develop into a extremely delicate subject in Ukraine, a rustic the place individuals spoke indifferently in each languages till the Russian invasion. That is now not the case: many Russian-speaking Ukrainians have began to be taught Ukrainian and refuse to talk Russian. Was Ukrainian ever a marker of nationwide id earlier than the conflict? And does talking Ukrainian right now imply you’re a hardcore nationalist?
After I was a scholar or a schoolboy, if somebody spoke Ukrainian in Kiyv, you’ll suppose that she or he was both a peasant or a nationalist. And that was truly the perspective of the Communist Celebration of Ukraine: throughout the get together, in fact, there have been Ukrainian audio system who have been communists, however they have been additionally excellent Russian audio system. The political system in Ukraine is kind of anarchic due to the historical past of the nation, which, not like most European international locations, has by no means had a royal household however principally was a part of different empires and kingdoms.
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When Ukraine was an impartial territory dominated by the Cossacks earlier than 1654, the Cossacks elected the Hetman. The Hetman was the top of the military and the top of the territory. Even then, the Ukrainians have been politically impartial and really strong-willed, and I suppose everybody spoke Ukrainian. However in 1654 the Ukrainian Hetman Bohdan Khmelnytsky requested the Russian Tsar for assist in the conflict towards Poland. That was the start of the top of Ukrainian independence.
Later, the Kremlin issued greater than 40 decrees to tame Ukrainian id, and it was solely after 1991 that the Ukrainian language started to return to the Ukrainian territories from which it had been eliminated by Russia.
In contrast to Russia, which has at all times been a monarchy and the place individuals love the Tsar and anticipate him to organise their lives, Ukraine has an extended custom of a type of democracy. Consequently, we now have greater than 300 political events, as a result of each Ukrainian who will get into politics needs to create his personal get together. These events aren’t ideological, they symbolize curiosity teams or personalities. When Ukraine regained its independence, politicians needed to divide society as a way to get their share of the voters. The best division was between Russian and Ukrainian audio system.
So essentially the most energetic events within the east promised voters to make Russian the second official language, whereas the energetic events within the west promised voters to ban Russian and make Ukrainian the one language in Ukraine. In fact, Russia helped the pro-Russian events. And Russia was truly making an attempt to power Ukrainian leaders and politicians to simply accept Russian as a second official language, as a result of then it could have been a lot simpler to combine Ukraine again into the Russian empire, which is what occurred in Belarus.
In Belarus, solely 25% of individuals communicate Belarussian, however most writers now write in Russian. Politically and culturally energetic writers and poets who used to jot down in Belarusian are actually refugees in Lithuania and Poland since they’re thought of harmful by Alexander Lukashenka’s regime.
And so, actually, since 2005, Russia has repeatedly mentioned that it needs to defend Russian audio system in Ukraine. The results of this defence is that many Russian-speaking Ukrainians have been killed by Russians in Donbass, in Mariupol, Odessa, Kharkiv, Bucha and likewise in Kiev.
‘The Ukrainian language right now is certainly a marker of Ukrainian id, or no less than Ukrainian patriotism’
For the reason that sixteenth century, the Russian language has been used as an instrument to alter the individualistic mentality of Ukrainians and make them Russians. Lenin by no means trusted Ukrainians and by no means visited Kiyv in his life, though his sister lived there. The identical individualistic mentality prevented Ukrainians from becoming a member of the collective farms within the Twenties, which led the Soviets to deport Ukrainian peasants en masse to Siberia and create the famine of 1932-33 that killed no less than 3.5 million Ukrainians.
In Soviet occasions, this mentality survived solely in western Ukraine, which solely turned a part of the Soviet Union after the Second World Struggle. Earlier than that it was a part of Poland.
So I believe it’s honest to say that the Ukrainian language right now is certainly a marker of Ukrainian id, or no less than Ukrainian patriotism. In fact, persons are free to talk different languages at house, on the road, and so forth. – be it Tatar, Hungarian, Gagauz, and so forth. – however in official conditions you might be anticipated to talk solely Ukrainian. The identical goes for college: you might be anticipated to provide lectures in Ukrainian – a language that Catherine the Nice banned from universities in 1763.
Do you suppose that after the conflict Ukraine can nonetheless be a multilingual nation ultimately?
The minority languages will likely be spoken and used with none issues, aside from Russian. The society could be very traumatised by the conflict; there are graves from the conflict in each village, in each city. In the intervening time, something Russian is hated and unacceptable; bookshops refuse to promote books in Russian: Ukrainians have additionally stopped watching Russian YouTube and listening to Russian rock and classical music.
After I was 11 years outdated, I used to be requested in school whether or not I needed to be taught English as a overseas language or German. It was 1972 and I keep in mind saying “I’ll by no means be taught German as a result of the Germans killed my grandfather”. I discovered German once I was 37 years outdated. So I believe you can’t simply say {that a} sure language won’t ever be spoken, as a result of issues change. I’ve a number of German pals now and I journey to Germany so much. However we should not anticipate something constructive to occur to Russian tradition, Russian language, Russian literature in Ukraine within the subsequent 20 years.
This perspective is mirrored within the unwillingness of some Ukrainians to confront and cooperate with the Russian opposition. It is a delicate subject on which Ukrainian civil society is split. What’s your place?
In the intervening time, 99% of Ukrainian intellectuals suppose that you simply should not be on the identical stage with any Russian, even when they’re anti-Putin. Within the final three years I’ve held two public occasions with writers and journalists of Russian origin. Mikhail Shishkin from Switzerland, whom I’ve recognized for a few years, and a 12 months in the past in Canada with Masha Gessen, who emigrated from Russia to the USA as a baby on the age of eight. Due to the general public occasion with Masha Gessen, I used to be cancelled in Ukraine. So I understand how it feels.
I believe it’s best to search for these within the Russian opposition who’re actually able to influencing Russian society. And it’s best to speak to them. However once more, 99% of Ukrainian intellectuals would say that that is treason and they’ll by no means enable it.
You defined that Ukrainians have at all times had a defiant perspective in the direction of energy and the state, which might clarify the common revolts towards their rulers, not least the 2 most up-to-date revolutions: the Orange Revolution of 2004-05, which introduced the pro-Western Viktor Yushchenko to energy, and the Euromaidan of 2013-14, which overthrew the pro-Russian president Viktor Yanukovych. The place does this come from?
There’s a distinction in mentality: for Russians, stability is extra essential than freedom.
Within the 22 years of Putin’s rule, Russians gave up their freedoms to reside in a steady society, to be passive, to be promised excessive salaries and excessive incomes. For Ukrainians, freedom is extra essential than stability. Ukraine has by no means been a steady nation, aside from just a few years within the Soviet Union.
And for Ukrainians, political freedom, political expression, is extra essential than stability or earnings. To allow them to danger peace in society by standing up for his or her concepts to the top, as occurred within the Orange Revolution and Euromaidan.
A lot of your books are set in intervals of disaster and chaos, such because the Nineties after the collapse of the Soviet Union. These years have been marked by poverty and the disaster of the political system – two issues that Russia and Ukraine, in addition to many different international locations of the Soviet bloc, had in frequent – and led to the revanchist mentality that formed Putin’s regime. Is it true that the resentments amassed in these years fuelled a nationalist, chauvinist and anti-Western perspective in Russian public opinion? If this occurred in Russia, why did it not occur in Ukraine?
Russia and Ukraine took totally different paths after 1995-96. Earlier than that, they each survived in a type of felony disaster: the social construction disappeared, individuals did not have cash, the police did not need to work and have been changed by the mafia. So in case you had an issue, you wouldn’t go to the police. You’ll go to the native mafia boss, clarify what had occurred and he would attempt that will help you if he thought you have been proper.
However on the similar time, in fact, it was a time of untamed capitalism. Individuals have been taking dangers to get wealthy. I imply, some individuals, ex-communists, have been already wealthy, so that they tried to get wealthy legally. Within the Soviet Union there was the American dream and all people simply needed to get wealthy. When the Soviet Union collapsed, the Russians nonetheless had this American dream, whereas in Ukraine they’d a European dream. As a result of individuals thought that Europe is definitely steady and that we need to have a steady nation with out corruption, the place the police work and so forth. And that is why there have been no anti-Western emotions in Ukraine. Ukraine was already within the West. Lots of people in Russia have been struggling due to the brand new oligarchs. After which the Russian Orthodox clergy labored very onerous to create anti-Western, anti-European emotions. And so they succeeded.
‘When the Soviet Union collapsed, the Russians nonetheless had this American dream, whereas in Ukraine they’d a European dream’
They created a type of fundamentalist Russian Orthodox Church, supported by the state, which in flip supported the state. The church, which in Soviet occasions was linked to the KGB, was now linked to the FSB, its direct successor. Each have created this chauvinistic society, telling Russians that they’re essentially the most religious and ethical individuals, whereas everybody else round Russia is homosexual, gay, immoral, corrupt, and so forth. We didn’t have that in Ukraine.
In Ukraine you can’t impose your political beliefs on a mass of individuals, as a result of everybody has their very own concepts. It is a totally different mentality.
When the full-scale invasion started, you and your loved ones left Kiyv for Uzhgorod, and since you then’ve been travelling forwards and backwards from Kiyv to Western international locations to provide lectures and speeches. Have you ever been capable of proceed writing throughout this time? And in that case, has something modified in your method to writing? Did you ever take into consideration stopping writing your novels in Russian?
I continued to jot down as a result of my English writer requested me to jot down a 3rd documentary guide about what is occurring in Ukraine now. As for the Russian language, I’ve written non-fiction in Ukrainian and English, however I made a decision to stick with Russian for my fiction as a result of it’s my mom tongue. To jot down literary texts, one would want a a lot better information of the language than my information of Ukrainian. I do know that many Ukrainian intellectuals disapproved of me and tried to power me to say that I’d by no means write in Russian once more.
Among the best Russian-language Ukrainian writers, Volodymyr Rafeienko, is from Donetsk [in the Russian-occupied part of Ukraine]. When the Russians got here, he misplaced his house and his job. He moved to the Kiyv area, to the home of the Ukrainian-language author Andriy Bondar close to Bucha, the place he was virtually killed by the Russians in the course of the occupation. Then he determined that he would by no means write a phrase in Russian once more, and he began writing in Ukrainian, and his Ukrainian-speaking pals edit his texts in Ukrainian. So I suppose he won’t ever return to Russian. Possibly I’d do the identical if I had the identical expertise as him.
Talking of your literary fashion, you’ve a specific penchant for black humour and atmospheres harking back to Gogol and maybe Bulgakov. Do you place your self amongst such nice Ukrainian writers, and what’s your relationship to the nice names of actually Russian literature, like Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky, the extra mystical ones?
I really feel slightly sorry when Bulgakov is known as “anti-Ukrainian”. He was a typical product of his time. A few of his characters have been certainly towards Ukrainian independence, and I assume that’s as a result of he himself was a consultant of the Russian-speaking bourgeois elite of Kyiv. But when he was not born in Kyiv, he would not have develop into such an ideal magical author. Talking of Gogol… Gogol wrote in Russian when it was forbidden to jot down in Ukrainian. However he launched tens and lots of of Ukrainian phrases into Russian literature. He created the style for the whole lot Ukrainian in St Petersburg. Because of Gogol, wealthy individuals in St. Petersburg needed Ukrainian cooks, Ukrainian servants. They purchased Ukrainian people costumes, embroidered shirts and so forth. And that’s the reason, even right now, Russians can’t think about the Russian Empire with out Ukraine.
So in a means he’s partly responsible for right now’s conflict. I’ve by no means cherished Dostoyevsky and Tolstoy. I imply, Tolstoy was at all times boring to me. And Dostoyevsky was psychologically unstable, and he’s additionally accountable for creating this cult of the Russian soul and the concept that you can’t change one thing that’s already taking place and is given to you by God. So, I imply, Russian passivity comes from crime and punishment – I imply, actually, in crime and punishment there isn’t a punishment for the crime: in Dostoevsky’s Russian philosophy, the punishment is inside you. You aren’t punished by society. You aren’t punished by the court docket. And on the similar time it is like your future. If it’s a must to kill somebody, it’s a must to kill somebody, which is what the Russian military is doing in Ukraine now. I do not suppose they learn Dostoyevsky.
So my fashion is, I’d say, a mosaic of issues. The principle ingredient is black humour. And that is as a result of I used to be born an optimist, and now I contemplate myself a black optimist – that is somebody who is aware of that the whole lot will prove all proper, however is not certain if he’ll be alive when it does.
The place does Ukrainian society discover the capability for resistance that enables individuals to attempt to reside a traditional life? Is it doable to face the injuries and traumas of conflict collectively?
The conflict began in February 2014, which signifies that Ukrainian kids born after that 12 months have by no means lived in a peaceable Ukraine. In fact, from 2022 the scenario deteriorated, and since then kids are used to sleeping in metro stations, in bomb shelters, not going to highschool, solely doing on-line classes. And I believe Ukrainian society can pay a excessive value for this conflict by way of training. The identical goes for universities. Society is certainly traumatised and radicalised. On the similar time, persons are making an attempt to reside as they did earlier than the conflict. The principle distinction is that you simply can’t sleep. In the event you reside in a giant metropolis, you possibly can’t sleep at night time as a result of there are sirens from 11 pm to 9 am; there are common explosions and the anti-aircraft weapons go off. We do not sleep in Kyiv. We usually exit into the hall to steer clear of the home windows. If you see individuals within the cafes within the morning, virtually all of them have crimson eyes and drained faces. However they attempt to smile as a result of there’s a type of macho behaviour. In the event you ask somebody, “How are you?”, lots of people would say, “I am effective. I am effective”. However they would not inform you how they actually really feel. Psychologically, it is extremely exhausting.
Ukraine right now could be very totally different from Ukraine in 2021, as a result of we have now as much as 7 million refugees dwelling overseas. Greater than 400,000 Ukrainian kids are attending colleges elsewhere in Europe. I do not suppose lots of them will come again till they graduate, or if they arrive again in any respect. We now have about 6 million internally displaced individuals whose properties have been destroyed by Russian bombs and rockets. And doubtless half of Ukraine nonetheless lives in their very own flats and homes, like us in Kyiv.
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